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Hardwick Finance Committee and Select Board Budget Deliberations

Original title: 5/21/2026 Hardwick, MA. Finance Committee Meeting

These meeting notes are AI-generated and unofficial. They are provided for convenience and are not official Town records or approved municipal minutes. Verify all details using the source video and official Town documents.

Meeting details

Date

May 21, 2026

Duration

1h 30m

Decisions

1 recorded

Action Items

2 assigned

Summary

The Hardwick Finance Committee and Select Board met to discuss the revised FY2027 budget, focusing on the use of non-recurring revenue sources, such as gravel sales and solar payments, to balance the budget. Finance Committee members expressed significant concerns regarding the reliance on one-time funds and the lack of detailed oversight, advocating for line-item cuts to avoid future fiscal instability. The Select Board argued that the budget is bare-bones and that further cuts would severely impact essential municipal services, ultimately leading to a motion to accept the budget as presented despite the Finance Committee's opposition.

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Discussion Highlights

The budget includes $200,000 in non-recurring revenue from gravel sales and solar payments, which the Finance Committee strongly opposes using to balance the budget.
03:49 18:13 1:17:01
Finance Committee members argued that the town has a spending problem rather than a revenue problem and requested a line-by-line review to identify $95,000 in potential cuts.
18:40 19:59 35:13
The Select Board maintained that the budget is already at a minimum level and that further reductions would necessitate a Proposition 2 1/2 override to maintain current service levels.
11:25 26:41 28:57
Concerns were raised regarding the lack of a formal site plan and conservation commission sign-off for the proposed gravel excavation project.
05:11 05:31
The Town Administrator noted that the town is currently operating on a bare-bones budget, citing instances where training funds were diverted to purchase office supplies.
22:32 22:43

Transcript (16,741 words)

Lightly cleaned for readability. Each timestamp opens the video at that point.

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That I mean Warner would have been pre 1740.
00:00:04
>> That's a lot of Warner free. I mean cuz they all moved from Hatfield like 2 years after the town incorporated and the guy >> we'll call the meeting to order in a minute.
00:00:15
>> I told I can figure it out.
00:00:18
>> Anyway, I'll call uh meeting to order for the select board >> and I'll call the meeting to order for the finance committee. though we have Chris is in a car >> here shortly and Leon's got a little issue at home so he's going to be here later hopefully.
00:00:39
>> 21 All right.
00:00:49
Where are we at at this point? Do we do we have the pledge of allegiance? Oh, I'm sorry. It's not on the agenda.
00:01:01
>> Pledge of allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands. One nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Okay.
00:01:18
Where do we stand? Where do we or where do we sit?
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>> I think we were given a budget, a revised budget by Justine last night.
00:01:28
So, we should be saying that's the current budget we need to just discuss.

[00:00:00] that I mean Warner would have been pre [00:00:03] 1740. [00:00:04] >> That's a lot of Warner free. I mean cuz [00:00:06] they all moved from Hatfield like 2 [00:00:09] years after the town incorporated and [00:00:11] the guy [00:00:12] >> we'll call the meeting to order in a [00:00:13] minute. [00:00:15] >> I told [00:00:16] I can figure it out. [00:00:18] >> Anyway, I'll call uh meeting to order [00:00:21] for the select board [00:00:23] >> and I'll call the meeting to order for [00:00:25] the finance committee. though we have uh [00:00:27] Chris is in a car [00:00:30] >> here shortly and Leon's got a little [00:00:33] issue at home so he's going to be here [00:00:35] later hopefully. [00:00:39] >> 21 [00:00:47] All right. [00:00:49] Where are we at at this point? Do we uh [00:00:53] do we have the pledge of allegiance? Oh, [00:00:56] I'm sorry. It's not on the agenda. [00:01:01] >> Pledge of allegiance to the flag of the [00:01:04] United States of America and to the [00:01:06] republic for which it stands. One nation [00:01:10] under God, indivisible, with liberty and [00:01:13] justice for all. Okay. [00:01:18] Where do we stand? Where do we or where [00:01:21] do we sit? [00:01:22] >> I think we were given a budget, a [00:01:24] revised budget by Justine last night. [00:01:28] So, we should be saying that's the [00:01:31] current budget we need to just discuss. [00:01:35] >> Correct. I agree. Um, [00:01:40] >> do you want me to start, Mr. Chair? [00:01:42] >> Oh, if you could. [00:01:43] >> Um, so the budget uh that I sent last [00:01:45] night has the revised um school number. [00:01:47] I was on a school budget meeting [00:01:50] last Thursday where the numbers came [00:01:53] down a little bit. So that number is [00:01:55] reflective in there. Um I something that [00:01:58] we've kind of been talking about is the [00:02:01] it and having the budget that actually [00:02:03] reflects what we're actually spending [00:02:05] for it. So that number has been changed [00:02:07] as well. And I think the rest is [00:02:09] everything that you've looked at prior. [00:02:11] If I remember correctly, [00:02:13] I made all the other changes that were [00:02:15] discussed at prior meetings. [00:02:16] >> Okay. So, if you look at the bottom line [00:02:20] in the budget, [00:02:22] we are under Proposition 2 and a half by [00:02:25] over $24,000, which is excellent. We can [00:02:28] tell you we weren't under two and a half [00:02:30] by that much last year. [00:02:39] >> And that is using [00:02:42] the potential funds from the sale of [00:02:47] the uh uh [00:02:50] gravel out of the the uh [00:02:54] >> Yes. And and also [00:02:57] >> Yes. And also um the Karge Solar I did [00:03:00] reach out to Karge and they have just [00:03:03] made um a $758,000 [00:03:06] payment to National Grid. So they are [00:03:07] not going anywhere. [00:03:09] >> Okay. [00:03:10] and we wanted to take another look at [00:03:13] the uh gravel sale to see if how much [00:03:16] there was. [00:03:17] >> Does that include [00:03:20] >> All I have is that what I'm hearing from [00:03:23] Marty and Harry Cover cuz that's where [00:03:25] that's the people that I'm working with [00:03:27] on that. [00:03:27] >> Okay. [00:03:28] >> They're [00:03:28] >> I thought they were going to refine that [00:03:30] number. They are, but just we have not [00:03:33] had a an opportunity to get But Marty is [00:03:36] very confident that we're it's probably [00:03:38] going to be upwards of $300,000 [00:03:40] in [00:03:41] >> talking 200 now. [00:03:42] >> I only put in 100. [00:03:44] >> Yes. Yes, sir. [00:03:45] >> 100 total for gravel and 100 for KS. So, [00:03:48] it's 200. [00:03:49] >> Yes. Just separate. [00:03:50] >> 200 nonreoccurring. And that would be [00:03:52] those two non-reuring items. [00:03:56] >> Mr. Chair, on the sand and gravel. [00:03:58] >> Yes, sir. Um what the board authorized [00:04:03] um the RFP or the the sale of excess [00:04:06] gravel. Um when are we going to have a a [00:04:08] final RFP that goes out that has like [00:04:11] the scanning technology from the drone [00:04:13] in it and stuff like that and test for [00:04:16] what kind of aggregates in there? [00:04:17] >> Yeah, I think that's what I was trying [00:04:19] to get at. [00:04:20] >> So it's not going to be done through an [00:04:22] RFP. Marty is going to be using um the [00:04:25] company that he works with. [00:04:27] It's not muted. Um, auctions [00:04:29] international. [00:04:32] Um, so that his contact at the company's [00:04:35] going to come out and do all those, you [00:04:37] know, get take pictures and do all the [00:04:39] measurements just like when we sell the [00:04:41] police cruiser and the um the car up [00:04:44] here, the electric vehicle. Um, we're [00:04:46] going to do everything the same time and [00:04:47] it's going to be done um after July 1st. [00:04:49] So, it's an FY27 with a deadline of [00:04:52] everything has to be excavated and out [00:04:54] of there by the end of the by the end of [00:04:55] the calendar year. [00:04:57] I have a couple of points about this [00:04:59] too. [00:04:59] >> Okay. Yes, sir. [00:05:01] >> Do we have a qualified estimate on how [00:05:03] many cubic yards yet? [00:05:05] >> Apparently, we haven't have not. Okay. [00:05:08] >> Well, Marty has a number that [00:05:10] >> Do we have a sign off from the [00:05:11] conservation commission? [00:05:13] >> The conservation commission. So, [00:05:17] um, Bill Zinny has been talking to Harry [00:05:20] and Marty about this and he was [00:05:22] comfortable with the sale. [00:05:23] >> Yes or no? That's all it is. I only know [00:05:26] by by what bills in the conversation [00:05:29] you've been having with Marty and Harry. [00:05:30] I don't [00:05:31] >> Do we have a site plan for removal? [00:05:34] >> I do not believe we do. Yeah. [00:05:36] >> Believe we need one. [00:05:37] >> Right. [00:05:38] >> You're going to give it to the people [00:05:40] removing the gravel and they're going to [00:05:42] follow that. [00:05:44] You got to you you know you got to stay [00:05:46] to some grade, right? [00:05:48] >> You have a spec. [00:05:49] >> The answer is no. [00:05:50] >> No, that's not actually Mark. That's not [00:05:52] what I said. [00:05:52] >> Well, what did you say? [00:05:54] >> If you'd let me finish. Yes, we have [00:05:55] specs and everything and Marty is [00:05:57] getting the a concrete number, but he [00:05:59] has a confident number that he's been [00:06:00] working with. [00:06:01] >> Right. [00:06:03] >> How are we going to get the town's 40% [00:06:06] sure, which is estimated at 40,000 cubic [00:06:08] yards to our site? [00:06:12] Who's going to do that? [00:06:13] >> What do you mean? [00:06:15] >> Well, we're splitting 60/40, right? 40%, [00:06:18] right? So, how where how is the 40,000 [00:06:22] cubic let's call it 100,000 cubic yards [00:06:24] where how's the 40,000 cubic yards going [00:06:27] to get onto our property? [00:06:30] >> Who's going to do that? [00:06:31] >> These are all questions for the highway [00:06:33] superintendent. [00:06:33] >> Yeah, I would I would assume that I [00:06:36] would be look at I'm not going to be [00:06:37] here when you when you set that RFP. I'm [00:06:39] just telling you these are the questions [00:06:41] that I have which makes it risky to use [00:06:45] >> non-reoccurring funds when you don't [00:06:47] have the answers to these yet. So let me [00:06:50] finish because [00:06:52] >> so you it what happens after 7 years [00:06:56] when we use hologram [00:06:59] what will be the present cost of a [00:07:02] future sum that we're going to have to [00:07:04] spend after seven years cuz Marty picked [00:07:08] seven years worth of gravel. [00:07:10] >> Correct. [00:07:11] >> It's free. It's free gravel. [00:07:13] >> Free gravel for us. But after year five [00:07:16] or seven, what are we going to end up [00:07:18] paying for gravel needs beyond that? Do [00:07:22] we really know what that impact is by [00:07:24] that decision? [00:07:27] >> I would have these questions sent to the [00:07:30] person had I had [00:07:30] >> I just wrote these up before it came in. [00:07:32] Okay, just give me a break for a minute. [00:07:34] >> You're not you're not [00:07:36] >> you don't have to answer. Let him ask [00:07:38] you questions. Do you have a set minimum [00:07:42] acceptable price to be expected by the [00:07:44] successful bidder? [00:07:47] >> Marty does. Yes. He's handling this [00:07:49] whole thing. [00:07:49] >> $650. That's what you're saying. [00:07:52] >> I'm sorry. [00:07:53] >> $6.50 a yard. That's what you said the [00:07:56] last minute. Okay. So, that's the [00:07:57] minimum. [00:07:58] >> That's what they're going to pay for raw [00:07:59] gravel. [00:07:59] >> Yeah. [00:08:00] >> That seems ridiculous. It's always been [00:08:02] a buck. [00:08:04] >> $3 is the estimate I got. So, $3 to1 to [00:08:07] $3. So, you could be you could be way [00:08:11] off if you don't know the difference [00:08:14] between retail price of gravel and [00:08:16] wholesale price of gravel. I don't I'm [00:08:18] not an expert on this. I'm just saying [00:08:20] put a minimum so we don't have this [00:08:23] problem. If you base your use of that [00:08:26] fund without a knowledge of how much [00:08:29] that is, you might be making a mistake. [00:08:31] You might be way low on your price. I [00:08:34] don't know. [00:08:35] Um I know the the permits are not [00:08:39] required when municipal [00:08:42] uh excavation occurs. However, the [00:08:45] planning board has got lots of [00:08:47] experience in in uh gravel permits and [00:08:51] we ought to require whoever removes that [00:08:54] to follow a a special permit [00:08:58] that's goes over those regulations that [00:09:00] they're so familiar with. We're not. [00:09:02] They've got a detailed process to that. [00:09:05] >> I know it's an exemption for [00:09:07] municipality, but you're going to turn [00:09:08] this over to somebody else to do the [00:09:10] excavation. So, you may not be required [00:09:13] to pull a permit, [00:09:15] >> but you ought to make us make them pull [00:09:17] a even if it's a and it's a one-year [00:09:19] permit. That's the way that the zoning [00:09:21] laws are written. So, you want to make [00:09:22] sure you have a timeline on it. You You [00:09:26] know what I'm saying? Just for that [00:09:28] purpose. Uh, I think we are not in a [00:09:31] position to be able to talk about using [00:09:34] that non-reoccurring amount when we [00:09:36] don't have a clue on most of these [00:09:38] things. We have a feeling, but we don't [00:09:40] have we don't have enough information to [00:09:43] set budgets from from that particular [00:09:46] action. [00:09:47] >> Mr. Chair, [00:09:48] >> yes, [00:09:48] >> I'd like to respond. [00:09:51] >> So, I don't think that's fair and I [00:09:53] think posing those questions to the [00:09:55] select board or myself isn't fair. I [00:09:57] think the two people that are [00:09:58] spearheading the project should be the [00:10:00] ones answering those questions, [00:10:02] >> but they didn't get those questions. [00:10:04] >> It's absolutely fair for the [00:10:06] conversation on using non-reoccurring f [00:10:09] funds in our budget. It's a fair [00:10:11] question [00:10:14] is he's making a point. [00:10:16] >> Yeah. [00:10:17] >> He's making a point that and I take it [00:10:21] you do not want to use those funds. I it [00:10:24] especially under the circumstances we [00:10:26] don't know what that value stream is but [00:10:30] there's no reason to use reoccurring [00:10:32] non-reoccurring funds to to pay uh [00:10:36] salaries to to to pay for it. That's [00:10:39] what you're doing. You're taking [00:10:40] $100,000 worth of gravel, an asset of [00:10:43] your community, our community, [00:10:46] >> and going to and you're going to pay [00:10:48] legal fees and pension funds and you're [00:10:50] going to do all those things and it's [00:10:52] gone. [00:10:52] >> You're going to use do use it to balance [00:10:56] the budget essentially, [00:10:57] >> right? And it will not be here next [00:10:59] year. It we're we're very late in the [00:11:02] game. And the problem is is you are [00:11:05] correct. I I don't disagree with you. [00:11:08] However, [00:11:09] I feel like we have to take this budget [00:11:12] into consideration and then next year I [00:11:15] think there has to be a serious serious [00:11:17] discussion on a 2 and a half override. [00:11:19] And I have looked at this. I've I we've [00:11:21] met with the department heads that I [00:11:23] don't think there's anything in this [00:11:25] that can be further cut without serious [00:11:28] serious cuts to the limited services [00:11:30] that we have in this town. Mhm. [00:11:31] >> Uh the and and this is across the state [00:11:35] from what we are seeing. [00:11:38] >> The prices are through the roof and [00:11:40] local aid is down to nothing. Um so we [00:11:44] need drastic change there. But if we [00:11:46] want to maintain the services that we [00:11:48] have, I think this year we have to [00:11:50] accept this budget. I think that moving [00:11:53] forward I think we're going to have to [00:11:54] have a serious talk about doing a two [00:11:56] and a half override if we want to level [00:11:58] fund the services that we have in this [00:11:59] town. [00:12:01] No question is that so this conversation [00:12:03] has been going on for three years that [00:12:04] I've been on finance committee and I [00:12:06] know you're new to this but every year [00:12:08] it's the same thing. Let's kick this can [00:12:09] again. Let's kick this can again. [00:12:11] >> This can's going to stop getting kicked. [00:12:13] >> I agree. [00:12:14] >> And every other town is facing budget [00:12:16] cuts. We might be the only town in the [00:12:18] state that doesn't cut anything if that [00:12:20] be the case. [00:12:21] >> I mean look at West Brookfield. They're [00:12:24] not they're closing a school. Yep. [00:12:26] >> Right. They got they're laying off two [00:12:28] or three policemen. [00:12:31] >> Okam is down to one policeman, [00:12:34] >> right? So again, I'm not telling you [00:12:36] what to do. I'm just telling you that if [00:12:37] we keep kicking the can, there's only [00:12:39] going to be a disaster down the road. [00:12:41] That's my opinion. [00:12:42] >> So you have suggestions on what needs to [00:12:44] be cut. [00:12:45] >> Well, I think you have to look at [00:12:46] everything. [00:12:48] >> Mr. Chair, [00:12:48] >> this is [00:12:50] Go ahead. [00:12:51] >> Oh, well, I I have just some questions [00:12:53] to add to Mark's questions. one is like [00:12:56] the RFP, how how are we going to um like [00:13:00] I I mentioned this scan technology [00:13:02] through a drone or it could be through [00:13:03] satellite where they scan the area and [00:13:06] you know your yardage, but also you [00:13:08] don't know what kind of aggregate there [00:13:10] is because we haven't tested it. We [00:13:11] don't know if it's val high value or a [00:13:14] low value. And the prices you're kicking [00:13:17] around are, you know, there's a retail [00:13:19] price, there's a wholesale price, but [00:13:21] then there's also a price where the [00:13:22] guy's going in to excavate it himself. [00:13:24] And is that guy going to be or that [00:13:27] person going to be the one who moves [00:13:30] that gravel to, you know, 24 acres down [00:13:33] the road to stockpiler for the town or [00:13:36] is the town going to do that? Okay, [00:13:38] those those are things that we kind of [00:13:40] really need to know up front. Otherwise, [00:13:42] who's going to sit there and actually [00:13:44] total up the yardage? [00:13:46] >> Who's who's counting this? Realize [00:13:48] biggest trick in the game is that you [00:13:49] you take a truckload out and you say [00:13:51] it's 15 yards and it's 17 yards, [00:13:53] >> right? And who's going to [00:13:56] truck? [00:13:56] >> Oh, yeah. Right. [00:13:57] >> But that's why I'm saying like the [00:13:58] scanning technology is there, but it it [00:14:01] comes at a cost. And who's going to [00:14:02] absorb that cost? Is it going to be on [00:14:04] the contractor? Is it going to be on the [00:14:05] town? These are just things that we need [00:14:07] to clarify, [00:14:08] >> Mr. Chair. [00:14:09] >> Yes. [00:14:10] >> Um, so I guess my point to Mark's point [00:14:12] and now Mr. Chinker's point is the two [00:14:15] people that are spearheading this [00:14:16] project are not here for this [00:14:17] discussion. They were both here at the [00:14:19] last meeting. So I wish that they had [00:14:21] these questions were posed to the right [00:14:23] people. So you can you can you know talk [00:14:25] about hypotheticals, but [00:14:27] >> hypothetical you've got a [00:14:28] hypothetical,000 [00:14:30] in that in that list. That's [00:14:32] hypothetical, too. So, you're of the [00:14:36] same mind, [00:14:36] >> Mr. Sheriff [00:14:37] >> as Mark is. [00:14:38] >> I did ask this tech uh this technology [00:14:41] question to Harry Cford while he was [00:14:43] here. [00:14:44] >> And I didn't get an answer on it as far [00:14:47] as what we're using and whose cost it's [00:14:49] going to be on or anything like that. [00:14:51] How are we going to keep track of the [00:14:52] total yardage? That's all. And is it [00:14:55] going to be somebody there? Cuz that [00:14:56] somebody's going to come at an expense [00:14:59] or are we going to use technology? But [00:15:01] either way, there's some kind of [00:15:02] expenses. associated to it. Are we [00:15:04] passing it on to the contractor? That's [00:15:06] all. I just [00:15:06] >> All right. [00:15:07] >> Yeah. [00:15:07] >> No, I I understand your concern. [00:15:10] >> Yes. One, I just want to back up for two [00:15:12] seconds. I think this is a very valid [00:15:14] situation, but I also think [00:15:17] >> and last time we had a meeting, I think [00:15:19] I missed one. Not sure if I wasn't here [00:15:21] last time. Um there was the discussion [00:15:24] about going back and asking everybody [00:15:25] for 10%, which is crazy. That's that's [00:15:27] almost half a million dollars if [00:15:29] everybody kicked in. And we did have [00:15:30] that meeting where we had them come here [00:15:33] and [00:15:33] >> they I my entire life I've had budgets [00:15:36] and I've been and we had this [00:15:38] conversation on the street. Someone come [00:15:40] to me, my boss says, "You need to [00:15:42] eliminate $2 million by tomorrow in your [00:15:45] $70 million budget." [00:15:46] >> Mhm. [00:15:47] >> And what am I going to lose? And I would [00:15:49] say, "Okay, give me three hours and I'll [00:15:51] tell you exactly what I'm going to lose. [00:15:52] We won't have we won't shoot fall TV or [00:15:55] we won't do this or we won't do that. We [00:15:56] won't have a social. We won't you know, [00:15:57] same thing what they were just saying. [00:16:00] Not that we want to suggest firing [00:16:03] people, but if other towns are not just [00:16:06] saying, "Oh, just two." No one wants to [00:16:07] hear the two and a half override. Nobody [00:16:09] in this town wants to hear, "Times are [00:16:11] tough. We got to pay everybody. Let's [00:16:13] just override it." [00:16:15] >> I think that [00:16:17] somehow or another, you got to say to [00:16:18] somebody and and let forget the [00:16:20] percentage. If you said to Marty, I need [00:16:22] $10,000 or I need 15. What What would [00:16:25] happen if you did that? or the police [00:16:27] department. What have happened if you [00:16:29] said to the police department, "I need [00:16:31] $100,000." [00:16:33] And leave it up to them to say, "What [00:16:35] you won't get is 24-hour coverage or you [00:16:39] won't get this." It's up to them to come [00:16:41] back to you. You guys are the ones who [00:16:42] have to set the budget and say, [00:16:44] >> "We either have to live with what we've [00:16:46] told the people we're going to charge [00:16:49] them and [00:16:52] you eliminate stuff." I mean that [00:16:54] happens in every business going if you [00:16:56] if you have a budget and your boss says [00:16:58] get rid of some money. [00:17:00] >> So we didn't get one penny from any of [00:17:03] the people you guys talked to last week [00:17:05] couple weeks. [00:17:05] >> No, [00:17:06] >> but Martin did offer a couple thousand [00:17:08] dollars. He said if you had to get it he [00:17:11] could balance the budget. [00:17:13] >> No no but let's be fair to somebody. I [00:17:16] need $5,000. I need $10,000. I mean it's [00:17:19] all and what do I lose? because it's up [00:17:22] to them to say, "Well, I lose a person." [00:17:24] You know, the $54,000 that's set aside [00:17:27] for a person that never gets hired, you [00:17:29] say, "We'll take that person off the [00:17:31] rolls and we won't hire them. We won't [00:17:32] use that money as lef over for [00:17:34] overtime." Um, it's up to them to tell [00:17:38] you what they lose. [00:17:40] >> So, you're looking to start making cuts. [00:17:44] >> I'm I'm thought that's what we were [00:17:47] doing. the last time there was, you [00:17:48] know, we were going to come back with [00:17:50] cuts. It seems like we just nothing was [00:17:53] discussed about that. We just talked [00:17:55] about the $200,000 and I totally agree. [00:17:58] We shouldn't fund things with for [00:17:59] onetime money. It's just not the way to [00:18:03] run a house or a building or a job or a [00:18:06] business or a town. [00:18:07] >> So, Mr. Sher, [00:18:09] >> yes. [00:18:10] >> Um, [00:18:12] the finance committee is not going to [00:18:13] support a budget with onetime funds. So, [00:18:16] we can already we can already agree [00:18:18] tonight that if we're going to fund this [00:18:21] budget, balance this budget on one time [00:18:23] funds, we'll go into town meeting not [00:18:25] aligned. Okay? And then we'll put then [00:18:28] have the town people vote. That's okay. [00:18:31] Me too. [00:18:31] >> Yeah. We can both stand up and we can [00:18:33] both pitch our [00:18:34] >> our reasons why this town from the [00:18:38] second I stepped on into this finance [00:18:40] committee, we have a spending problem, [00:18:42] okay? Not a revenue problem. Mhm. [00:18:44] >> We could we could generate $10 million [00:18:46] of revenue today. [00:18:48] The select board and the town [00:18:49] administrator will spend $10 million [00:18:51] tomorrow. There is absolutely 100% [00:18:54] that's what will happen. Okay? Every [00:18:57] town in Massachusetts [00:18:59] when they bring revenue in they spend [00:19:01] it. Towns are not incentivized to one [00:19:05] control expenses and to in and to and to [00:19:08] save money. They don't do it. I've been [00:19:10] on I've been in the on a finance [00:19:12] committee for this is now 16 years in [00:19:16] two towns. There's not one time that [00:19:18] that a town's incentivized to say I have [00:19:21] x amount of revenue and I'm going to I'm [00:19:23] going to match my expenses to that. So, [00:19:26] we have one opportunity left at this [00:19:30] meeting tonight to say we need to cut [00:19:33] not it's not we don't it's not $100,000 [00:19:36] in the revenue. It's $150,000 of of [00:19:38] revenue that is difference from where [00:19:40] we've been trending to what is in the [00:19:43] budget. So we're trending around a [00:19:45] million 1.17 [00:19:48] and you got 1.3. So it's $150,000 [00:19:52] difference. Now we have to come up have [00:19:55] to come up with roughly [00:19:59] $95,000 worth of cuts. [00:20:03] We have to look at every single expense [00:20:05] that goes through this through her [00:20:08] office through the office of the the and [00:20:11] we got is this something that we need? [00:20:14] Is this something that we want? Is it or [00:20:17] is this something that is just [00:20:19] just here and like like like worm is [00:20:22] saying every single business [00:20:26] can cut expenses. [00:20:27] >> That that's great but that you can't run [00:20:29] a municipality like business. You can't [00:20:31] do it. No, that's an actual [00:20:34] let one person at a time. Let him [00:20:36] finish. [00:20:37] >> So, let me finish. Okay. So, if you want [00:20:40] to if you want to kick this can down the [00:20:41] road, be my guest. Your delta next year [00:20:45] is going to be insurmountable. You're [00:20:47] not going to get there. And if you want [00:20:48] to use more onetime funds, the next year [00:20:52] after that gets even worse. So, either [00:20:54] you fix it now or it gets to a point [00:20:57] where it's unfixable. And if you think [00:20:59] you're going to come to a town with a [00:21:00] two and a half override in this town, in [00:21:03] most towns, [00:21:05] you're out of luck. [00:21:06] >> Mr. Chair, hold on. [00:21:09] >> You wanted to say something? [00:21:10] >> Yes, I do. Um, I agree with Mr. Spencer [00:21:13] that you cannot run a municipality like [00:21:16] a business. I also would like to say [00:21:18] that I know for a fact that the prior [00:21:20] town administrator whose friend of mine [00:21:22] balanced the budget her three years here [00:21:24] with onetime revenue because we do not [00:21:27] bring in enough revenue to support the [00:21:29] operation of the town. [00:21:30] >> Well, that's we should be looking at [00:21:32] revenue. [00:21:33] >> Mr. Chair, say [00:21:34] >> um yes, it's legal to fund like per DLS. [00:21:39] Yeah, they say it's legal. They don't [00:21:41] recommend it. It's not best practice, [00:21:43] but you they also confirmed if you use [00:21:46] onetime revenue per what Chris is [00:21:48] saying, we use 200 grand. Next year, [00:21:51] we're looking right at the starting [00:21:53] point of a negative 200 grand. [00:21:56] That's our starting position next year. [00:21:58] >> Oh, Mr. Chair, I there was one other [00:22:00] thing I forgot to add. Is that okay? [00:22:02] >> Okay. Um, I know for a fact because I'm [00:22:04] still very close with my former chair of [00:22:06] the finance committee and where, but [00:22:07] they're balancing their budget with $500 [00:22:09] or $600,000 worth of free cash. My town [00:22:12] just passed an override to support their [00:22:13] fire department so we don't have to make [00:22:15] cuts. Yeah, there's a lot of towns right [00:22:17] now in Massachusetts that are suffering [00:22:19] significantly. We are fortunate enough [00:22:21] that right now we are we are not one of [00:22:23] them. But if we cut the operation, we're [00:22:25] going to be one of them because we have [00:22:27] oneperson departments. And another [00:22:28] thing, and I Mr. Spencer knows this. [00:22:32] We're so bare bones that instead of [00:22:34] going to a training that I needed to go [00:22:37] to for as part of the manager's [00:22:40] association to learn about new [00:22:41] regulations, I had to use that money to [00:22:43] pay for envelopes for the treasurer [00:22:45] because she has to get bills out. That's [00:22:47] how bare bones we are. [00:22:50] >> So that is the truth. [00:22:51] >> Yes. All right. I mean, that's why we [00:22:54] need tonight to sit here, work this out, [00:22:57] and come up with cuts because there are [00:22:59] cuts available in this budget, but at [00:23:01] the same time, we really need to look at [00:23:04] like policies that we have in place. We [00:23:06] passed the the um the nonprofit like the [00:23:10] TPC policy, pilot TPC program to address [00:23:14] to negotiate with large nonprofits in [00:23:18] town based on, you know, so this next [00:23:21] year we should negotiate with them and [00:23:22] set up agreements. So they they partner [00:23:25] with the town and they support us [00:23:27] because they use these services, they [00:23:28] use police, they use fire, they use [00:23:30] emergency, they use the infrastructure, [00:23:33] but yet we don't have pilots for them. [00:23:35] and we and they're not contributing to [00:23:36] it. So like Smok, if you just if we [00:23:40] asked Chief Landing how many calls a [00:23:42] year to just address SMAK alone, the the [00:23:46] cost would be staggering. And this would [00:23:48] also help offset the the pressure that's [00:23:51] put on just the residents of this town [00:23:54] and and we have adopted this policy and [00:23:57] it's just sitting there and it's not [00:23:59] being utilized. I just want to bring it [00:24:01] to your attention, Mr. Chair. [00:24:02] >> Very good. [00:24:04] So, I go back to my original question. [00:24:08] What do you propose cutting? I [00:24:12] >> Mr. Mr. [00:24:13] >> Hold on. Hold on. I'd like to finish [00:24:15] first. [00:24:17] I'm of the mind [00:24:19] that we're going to probably have to [00:24:21] come to some sort of compromise. [00:24:24] But I'm also aware that [00:24:29] that it's [00:24:33] I do not want to have all these I do not [00:24:37] want to do any more cutting to what we [00:24:39] already have here. Um [00:24:43] and we may have to use these onetime [00:24:48] nonreoccurring [00:24:49] funds to balance the budget. we may just [00:24:52] be forced into that corner. [00:24:55] >> I I guess if I can answer to that, [00:24:58] >> it's your prerogative to put that [00:25:01] together. We've made it pretty clear, I [00:25:02] think I've heard from everybody here, [00:25:04] that we're not going to support using [00:25:07] the one time costs, [00:25:08] >> right? [00:25:08] >> So, if you want to leave it up to the [00:25:10] town hall floor, [00:25:12] >> I'm okay with that. [00:25:13] >> I am. But but the problem that I I see [00:25:17] looking forward is there's a lot of [00:25:18] towns where where voters are saying, [00:25:20] "I've had enough." [00:25:22] >> Yes. [00:25:22] >> And so you stand [00:25:23] >> Yeah. you you stand the chance of [00:25:26] getting your budget rejected. [00:25:28] >> Mhm. [00:25:30] >> And worse yet, without without a [00:25:33] compromise with the finance committee, [00:25:36] which will weigh to some degree and and [00:25:38] look it, it's just it's that one item [00:25:40] that's the problem. [00:25:42] >> Can I I I Mr. chair. I don't know. I [00:25:45] think I was I think it was you, Mr. [00:25:46] Corbick. I think you were talking about [00:25:48] the the school in West Brookfield [00:25:50] closing and Rutland losing their [00:25:51] services. The thing with those [00:25:53] >> is that went to the voters, right? So, [00:25:55] the voters said, "We are not going to [00:25:58] fund this. We're comfortable losing [00:25:59] this." And it wasn't on the finance [00:26:01] committee or the select board to say, [00:26:03] "We're cutting all these positions." I [00:26:05] think, and my whole point on this is [00:26:07] we're late in the game on this. We go We [00:26:10] go to town meeting what, next week? Two [00:26:11] weeks. [00:26:12] >> Two weeks. We go to town meeting in two [00:26:14] weeks. If we were talk if we we should [00:26:16] have been talking about an override in [00:26:17] my opinion in January and we should have [00:26:19] been pushing this to the voters in [00:26:21] January. Yeah. [00:26:22] >> We're going to the town meeting right [00:26:24] now. We don't have a set budget between [00:26:25] the two of us. We're clearly in [00:26:27] disagreement. And if we're talking cuts, [00:26:31] I think everything that has been cut out [00:26:33] of this has been cut. I I don't see [00:26:35] anything else that can be be cut without [00:26:38] losing drastic services in this town or [00:26:41] losing employees. And frankly, if we're [00:26:43] going to be making that sort of cuts, I [00:26:45] would rather put it in the town's [00:26:47] people's hands and say, "Hey, we're [00:26:49] going for a two and a half override. [00:26:50] This is why." And if you're comfortable [00:26:54] losing overnight staffing on PD or if [00:26:57] you're comfortable losing staffing on [00:26:59] DPW or any number of things that have to [00:27:02] be cut out of this budget, then that's [00:27:05] on them. And if it if a if if an [00:27:07] override fails and we lose those [00:27:09] services, [00:27:10] then the town's people smoke. And and [00:27:12] granted, I know 300 400 people come out [00:27:14] to vote out of 2,000, but those 400, [00:27:18] whatever, if they say, "Nope, we're not [00:27:21] going to fund this. we're not going to [00:27:22] fund a two and a half override and we [00:27:23] have to make those cuts based on what [00:27:25] the town's people say, then I think [00:27:28] that's the point we're at we're at right [00:27:30] now. But I think that should have been [00:27:31] talked about in January because now [00:27:34] we're looking at we're looking at a town [00:27:36] meeting. There is, you know, $100,000 [00:27:39] that I have been kind of going back and [00:27:42] forth on feeling comfortable about and I [00:27:44] I'm not warm and fuzzy about it. I'm [00:27:47] more warm and fuzzy, especially after [00:27:48] hearing that, you know, the solar [00:27:50] company is spending $700,000 with [00:27:53] national grid. I'm more comfortable [00:27:54] spending that because I at least know [00:27:56] they're investing in their what they're [00:28:00] going to be doing in that project. The [00:28:02] real big question, and I think we're all [00:28:04] on the same page with it, is the gravel [00:28:06] sale, right? And as you pointed out, [00:28:08] they were going what, $650, and I've [00:28:11] heard anywhere from $2 to $3 um on the [00:28:15] wholesale market. So I I'm not warm and [00:28:17] fuzzy on it, but I think that we are so [00:28:19] late in the game with this right now [00:28:22] that to talk a two and a half override [00:28:24] right now is it's it's not possible. I I [00:28:27] think that that has to happen early in [00:28:30] the in the next year's budget cycle. I [00:28:34] and I I I know we've talked about [00:28:38] you can't run a municipality like a [00:28:40] business and the problem is is you have [00:28:43] local aid coming in from the state that [00:28:45] is not guaranteed and they lower it [00:28:47] every single year it seems like and [00:28:49] that's how we're in this predicament [00:28:51] right now because of that because over 5 [00:28:54] years it's gone down substantially and [00:28:55] then on top of that our costs have gone [00:28:57] up. Our health insurance is through the [00:28:59] roof and that's every municipality. Um, [00:29:03] and I just I don't see I don't see how [00:29:06] we approve this budget without using [00:29:08] some of that one revenue. That's that [00:29:10] it's just especially this year. [00:29:13] >> Let me just say that I really don't want [00:29:16] to go into town meeting without finance [00:29:20] committee [00:29:21] input and and okaying things. I really [00:29:25] don't. [00:29:27] I mean, you you're taking this town [00:29:31] budget and you're throwing it on the [00:29:33] town meeting and saying, "You guys make [00:29:36] up your minds, but we don't have a they [00:29:39] they don't know what's going to be cut [00:29:40] if they don't do it." [00:29:43] I really want finance committee buy in. [00:29:47] >> I really do. [00:29:48] the two and a half would would authorize [00:29:53] um if you eliminated the 200,000 [00:29:57] of the [00:29:58] >> non-recurrenr so then you're just adding [00:30:00] asking for an override on that $200,000 [00:30:04] it's not for the budget right I mean so [00:30:08] if [00:30:10] >> so that's really the only option [00:30:12] >> we're not going we can't we're not going [00:30:13] to go to town meeting asking for an [00:30:14] override [00:30:15] >> yeah we can't we're so late we're so [00:30:18] That's that's that's impossible to do. [00:30:20] >> But they do but they do get the vote. [00:30:23] What they what if they said we don't [00:30:26] want to vote for revenue from Brown. Is [00:30:29] that something they can vote on? [00:30:30] >> No. [00:30:31] >> So what [00:30:32] >> so is it but if we say we don't agree on [00:30:34] non-recurring [00:30:36] money. [00:30:38] >> I thought line items in a budget could [00:30:39] be except for schools. Lane items on a [00:30:42] budget can be debated on floor. [00:30:44] >> Absolutely. They they open it. Yes. [00:30:46] Yeah. As soon as it's open and the [00:30:48] citizen makes a motion, it's for game [00:30:50] night, [00:30:50] >> right? [00:30:51] >> Yes. Uh line items can be on the floor, [00:30:54] but the but the revenue side that's that [00:30:56] doesn't go into town meeting. That's [00:30:57] that's [00:30:58] >> And since you mentioned revenue, Mr. [00:31:01] Chair, [00:31:02] >> um how does the whistle stop closing [00:31:04] affect the meals revenue? What's the [00:31:07] number that we're not going to have from [00:31:08] that? [00:31:08] >> Yeah, we don't have that figure. [00:31:11] >> Well, we have a history. [00:31:12] >> Well, you have a history. Can you get [00:31:14] that too, Bill, if you'd like me to? [00:31:16] >> Again, I you know, back to what Zach was [00:31:19] saying, we're getting a little late in [00:31:20] the game. [00:31:21] >> Well, just just just put I want to make [00:31:23] sure we make this clear, Zack. The the [00:31:25] um we didn't in January. We didn't have [00:31:30] the gravel. [00:31:31] >> I know [00:31:31] >> it was it was the clearance surplus in [00:31:33] April. [00:31:34] >> I know [00:31:34] >> we were we were this just came up to be [00:31:37] able to solve this problem. [00:31:39] >> Okay. It's not If we worked in January, [00:31:42] we'd be having this conversation. [00:31:44] >> I'm not I'm not putting it on you guys. [00:31:46] >> No, no, I I understand that, but Well, [00:31:48] we get a lot of criticism about, you [00:31:50] know, being a little late at the table, [00:31:51] but we spend a lot of time on this. One [00:31:54] other point to make is we just got the [00:31:55] school number. [00:31:56] >> Yes, we did. So, [00:31:57] >> Thursday, [00:31:59] you know, our school is half of the [00:32:01] budget. So when we, you know, we we [00:32:04] we've been having this conversation for [00:32:06] years about rewrite, you know, uh, [00:32:09] resetting the expense and until the [00:32:12] select board can reset the expenses, [00:32:16] we're going to have going to continue to [00:32:17] have this conversation. Okay. So this [00:32:21] has been talked about since January. [00:32:22] It's been talked about since last year. [00:32:27] Again, what where do we take this from [00:32:30] here? I I don't see any other way around [00:32:35] it other than to use the one time [00:32:36] ribbon. [00:32:38] >> You could make cuts, sir. [00:32:39] >> Yeah. What [00:32:40] >> What I mean, what are we cutting? I [00:32:43] think like Warren said, you could ask [00:32:44] the department and say, if you had to [00:32:47] cut X, whatever that number is, [00:32:49] >> what would you lose so that somebody [00:32:51] could present that on the floor to say [00:32:54] going to lose a policeman night duty? [00:32:56] that, you know, for instance, we're [00:32:58] going to lose [00:33:01] uh something from the highway [00:33:03] department, right? If it's that one [00:33:04] person hasn't been hired in 3 years, [00:33:06] we're going to agree not to hire that [00:33:08] person until next year till we have more [00:33:10] revenue. [00:33:12] >> Wasn't the Wasn't the fair detail? [00:33:18] >> Wasn't the line the line item hard [00:33:21] detail something that was voted on last [00:33:23] year at town meeting? comes in the [00:33:25] budget to put it through the chair. We [00:33:27] we've been asking to take the Harvard [00:33:29] Police detail off the police budget, [00:33:31] make it an article and and you guys [00:33:35] don't want to do it until we do that. It [00:33:37] stays in the budget. Pull that out and [00:33:39] let the town's people vote on it. And [00:33:41] that that's one that's $3,000 we can [00:33:44] against the 95 that we've got to find. [00:33:46] >> The warrants closed for town meeting. [00:33:48] >> Mr. Chair, are they? [00:33:50] >> Yes. [00:33:50] >> Um we still have time. We have till the [00:33:52] end of June June 30th. So we just [00:33:55] because our annual meeting set date Ryan [00:33:58] mentioned we can bump that date if we [00:34:00] need a week we need two weeks we do a [00:34:03] special town meeting we can extend that [00:34:05] date so we can go to the police [00:34:08] department we can go to these people and [00:34:09] we can ask them hey if we take 50 grand [00:34:11] from you what are you going to cut and [00:34:13] that way or we can make the cuts here [00:34:15] tonight no one wants to do it it's not a [00:34:18] great thing people are going to be upset [00:34:20] or offended or whatever but at the same [00:34:23] time. We have a problem and we need to [00:34:25] address it and it's our job to and and [00:34:28] then it goes to the citizens of this [00:34:30] town. They either agree or they don't. [00:34:32] But the last thing we want to do is [00:34:35] finance committee and select board not [00:34:37] be on the same page. [00:34:38] >> Could what chair? [00:34:40] >> What cuts? [00:34:42] >> Hold on. [00:34:42] >> Everybody keeps on saying cuts. [00:34:44] >> I have notes here. This is what I need, [00:34:46] >> Mr. Chair. And I'll not take any [00:34:48] comments right now. Okay. [00:34:49] >> I have a cut through through the chair. [00:34:51] >> Yes. Until we spend and go through the [00:34:55] ledger and look at every single item, [00:35:00] we won't know what we can cut. Okay, I [00:35:02] can tell you right now, let's cut it by [00:35:04] 12 grand. Let's take um assessor expense [00:35:07] 2 grand. We have I have a list of [00:35:09] things. Okay, can we do it or can't we [00:35:11] do it? Okay, we have to look at we have [00:35:13] to look at line by line, transaction by [00:35:16] transaction. What do we need? What don't [00:35:19] we need? and we can figure out that's [00:35:21] how we do. [00:35:22] >> Are you prepared to do that? [00:35:25] >> Right. [00:35:26] >> You own you own you're in char are we [00:35:30] prepared to do that then? [00:35:31] >> I'll sit and do it will you? [00:35:33] >> You three need to sit down and do it and [00:35:35] understand what the transactions are. [00:35:38] >> Okay. Until you do that and have a good [00:35:40] understanding and and I you know I [00:35:42] apologize but you haven't been through [00:35:44] the details like we've been through. [00:35:46] >> Okay. [00:35:47] >> You don't have to apologize, right? So [00:35:49] >> you have nothing to apologize. [00:35:50] >> So until you sit and go through this [00:35:52] thing line by line, transaction by [00:35:55] transaction, you can't say there's [00:35:56] nothing in this budget to cut. [00:35:58] >> Mr. Chair, [00:35:58] >> this I'm not finished. [00:35:59] >> Hold on. So until we do that, there is [00:36:03] plenty in in this budget we can cut. My [00:36:05] recommendation would be let's pass a [00:36:07] balanced budget for an amount and we [00:36:11] have we can we have all summer and fall [00:36:14] to go figure it out. [00:36:17] But we've got ourselves a balanced [00:36:19] budget, not using lifetime revenue, and [00:36:21] we can and we can sit and we can figure [00:36:24] this thing out and we have plenty of [00:36:25] time to go do it. [00:36:26] >> Make the cuts afterwards. [00:36:27] >> Mr. Chair, [00:36:29] >> there's an interesting that's an [00:36:31] interesting approach. Instead of kicking [00:36:33] the can down to the next fiscal year, [00:36:35] kick it down further in this fiscal year [00:36:38] so that when you run out of money, we'll [00:36:40] have to find some. [00:36:44] >> Mr. chair, if I may remark, what he's [00:36:47] saying along those same lines is we need [00:36:50] fiscal oversight done by the select [00:36:53] board and the finance committee. Like we [00:36:56] should be reviewing these budgets on a [00:36:58] monthly basis and we should be getting [00:37:00] you know updated where is the spending [00:37:03] and then we should get notifications [00:37:04] once we hit 70% of of appropriations 80% [00:37:09] 85% and then when we hit 100% [00:37:11] >> you shut it down. [00:37:12] >> We shut it off or or we do a transfer [00:37:15] before we spend overspend. That's how [00:37:18] it's supposed to be done. [00:37:19] >> Justine [00:37:20] >> the select board cannot do a transfer [00:37:23] before the end of the year. They have 30 [00:37:25] days at the end of the fiscal year to do [00:37:26] the transfer. You cannot do it in the [00:37:28] middle of the fiscal year. Also, I'd [00:37:30] like to add that [00:37:33] from Mr. Horos that he to go by line by [00:37:36] line. I've invited him in to meet with [00:37:38] me to go line by line and see every [00:37:40] single account for a year and a half and [00:37:42] he has not done it. Mr. Spencer has been [00:37:45] here several times the last two weeks [00:37:47] since he's been on the board and he's [00:37:48] been looking at everything line by line [00:37:50] and he's seen the ledgers and he's seen [00:37:52] where we are year to date. He's seen [00:37:53] what the assessor spending. He's looked [00:37:55] at it. We We had an IT meeting today. [00:37:59] >> So, I I just whatever the select board [00:38:01] or finance committee wants to see, I've [00:38:03] always provided. Um I've provided my [00:38:05] time. I provided any anything that they [00:38:09] that you've asked for to the best that I [00:38:11] can. And [00:38:13] like I said, we have a a balanced budget [00:38:16] to go to town meeting with. In fact, we [00:38:18] have money in we have extra in the levy. [00:38:19] And I'm recommending that the select [00:38:21] board approve this budget. And then if [00:38:23] the if the finance committee and select [00:38:24] board want to start meeting in July or [00:38:26] August or whatever to start preparing [00:38:27] for next year, I think that's fantastic. [00:38:29] But I think we have a balanced budget to [00:38:31] go to town meeting with that's palatable [00:38:33] for all the departments. [00:38:35] >> Um, now you're talk how would you go [00:38:39] about bringing this budget down to be [00:38:44] balanced without the non-reoccurring [00:38:47] funds? Well, we're going to we have to [00:38:50] come up with a number that balances it [00:38:53] out. So, we've got we're looking right [00:38:57] now. We've got a 90 we have a a $95,000 [00:39:02] delta. [00:39:04] So, we've got to pick we got to take [00:39:07] $95,000 out of 7 million. [00:39:12] What? 7,317,000. [00:39:14] Is that what the what your bottom line [00:39:16] is? [00:39:17] 7 million [00:39:20] >> RNA. [00:39:21] >> What's that? [00:39:21] >> It says total RNA and it has the budget [00:39:25] raise and appropriate. [00:39:26] >> What's the budget? [00:39:27] >> 7,411,252 [00:39:31] >> right here. 7 7317192. [00:39:34] Subtract $95,000 from that and that's [00:39:37] the number we go with. [00:39:38] >> Subtract how much? [00:39:39] >> Wait. 741. [00:39:40] >> I got 7411. No, [00:39:42] >> 73. You got to do it. 7 [00:39:44] >> 73 [00:39:45] >> 7317 [00:39:47] 192 [00:39:48] >> Oh, I see. [00:39:49] >> Subtraction 95, [00:39:52] >> $940. [00:39:56] >> Okay. [00:39:57] >> And that's the number we go in with. And [00:39:59] then we spend the summer. We go through [00:40:02] line by line. We And we'll have all of [00:40:05] we'll have all of 2026 [00:40:07] in. [00:40:09] >> We'll go through the ledger. [00:40:10] >> Just can sit and pull invoices. We can [00:40:12] sit in this room. We can go, do we need [00:40:14] this? We do. Great. We don't. Get rid of [00:40:18] it. And from that, I guarantee you we'll [00:40:20] find more than $95,000 in savings. [00:40:23] >> And what happens when and if we start [00:40:26] going over that consistently? [00:40:27] >> Where are you going over that? [00:40:28] >> Uh eventually we might run into the [00:40:32] situation. [00:40:34] I think we would where we're going to [00:40:37] overrun our budget. [00:40:40] We uh we already donated our $40,000 [00:40:44] from the uh reserve for finance committ. [00:40:48] >> Yeah. Yeah. [00:40:49] >> It's out of the budget. It came out of [00:40:51] the budget as it went into our [00:40:52] >> It's an article on [00:40:53] >> I know. But it that was our that was our [00:40:57] backup. We took it out. So [00:40:59] >> we haven't I guess snow and ice will be [00:41:02] a separate topic for tonight. [00:41:04] Um, if we did that, if we if we get to a [00:41:08] point where we're we can't find any [00:41:10] savings, then you're you're cutting you [00:41:11] have to cut staff. [00:41:13] >> But you have got time to figure out. [00:41:15] >> There's some typos in here just looking [00:41:17] at it. [00:41:18] >> Typos? [00:41:18] >> Yeah, typos. Like um the [00:41:23] >> This isn't the sheet that goes to town [00:41:25] meeting. This is just [00:41:26] >> All right. Well, I'm just saying dollar [00:41:27] amount. Uh the treasur collector is [00:41:30] 74,263. [00:41:31] >> Yes. And that should be 72,420. [00:41:35] >> No, it shouldn't. [00:41:35] >> It's 2% increase. [00:41:37] >> No, she gets a 3%. It's in her. It's in [00:41:39] her offer letter. I read her offer [00:41:41] letter. [00:41:42] >> It was the [00:41:42] >> I've never seen the offered letter. When [00:41:45] was this presented? [00:41:46] >> When she was hired, it was in your [00:41:47] packet. No, it was in your packet when [00:41:49] she was hired. [00:41:50] >> Let's not argue about that. [00:41:52] >> All right. Well, I'm just saying right [00:41:53] there. All right. There's other amounts. [00:41:55] There's also [00:41:57] >> You want to talk about [00:41:59] hours, stuff like that? We we track the [00:42:02] police right down to the gallon of gas [00:42:04] that they use. They have very strict [00:42:07] regiment and he explained this. Who's [00:42:09] buying the next tank of gas? The whole [00:42:11] nine yards. [00:42:13] But yet town hall, we pay full-time [00:42:16] employees, but we only work the hours [00:42:19] open are 32 hours. [00:42:21] So why are we paying a full salary when [00:42:26] it's roughly 80% that [00:42:31] >> I don't know that's a question looking [00:42:33] to renegotiate contracts. Is that what [00:42:35] you're saying or [00:42:36] >> I'm saying right now the way things [00:42:38] currently stand uh FTE full-time [00:42:42] ex uh employee all right is 40 hours but [00:42:47] yet the town halls closed on Fridays. If [00:42:50] you look at the hours that were open and [00:42:52] you pay lunch, those hours worth the 32 [00:42:55] hours, [00:42:57] >> Mr. Chair, [00:42:58] >> and but it adds up, Mr. Chair. It's [00:43:01] significant because if you total up the [00:43:03] salaries and you add up and it's almost [00:43:06] >> say 275 and then you take times that by [00:43:09] 80, that's 50 grand. [00:43:11] >> Yes. [00:43:12] >> Um, you want to talk about town hall [00:43:14] full-time employees? I can't speak for [00:43:16] the clerk and the assessor because they [00:43:17] are elected officials, but the other [00:43:19] ones work way more than the 32 hours [00:43:21] that this town is open. I know the [00:43:23] treasurer works at least 45 or 50 hours [00:43:24] a week and so do I. So the full-time [00:43:27] employees are get are there at town [00:43:29] meeting if they need to attend a [00:43:31] meeting. But you saw the treasurer here [00:43:33] tonight well after the town hall was [00:43:35] closed. We we work because we don't have [00:43:38] staff. So we have to work the hours to [00:43:40] get the job done where other towns who [00:43:42] have bigger departments have more [00:43:44] employees. They don't they may not have [00:43:45] to work as many hours as we do, but we [00:43:48] are on one person department, so we have [00:43:50] to put in the hours. [00:43:51] >> Okay. Well, the clerk is an elected [00:43:54] position. Yes. Right. [00:43:55] >> Yes. [00:43:56] >> So, there you know, he he works what the [00:44:00] town hall is open and the town hall is [00:44:02] open 32 hours a week, but yet we pay [00:44:05] full-time salary for that. [00:44:07] >> That should be at least 75 or8 [00:44:11] >> through through a chair. [00:44:12] >> Yes. If if we force ourselves to find if [00:44:16] we so let's say we go down the road we [00:44:18] say we're going to cut $95,000 and we're [00:44:20] going to now force ourselves to go find [00:44:21] the savings. We'll go find the savings, [00:44:23] >> right? [00:44:23] >> And we'll we'll do the right things [00:44:25] right now sitting here going we got to [00:44:27] cut $95,000. We can't I can't cut [00:44:30] anything. I can't give anything up. I [00:44:31] can't do anything because we're not [00:44:32] forced to go do it. We're not sitting [00:44:34] here. [00:44:36] So if we if we put ourselves in a [00:44:38] position that we have to go find the [00:44:39] savings and we go line by line, [00:44:41] transaction by transaction, invoice by [00:44:43] invoice, I guarantee you we will find [00:44:46] those savings and we'll reset the budget [00:44:49] going forward. We'll have we'll have [00:44:51] we'll have money we'll have all this one [00:44:54] time money coming in. Now we're fixing [00:44:57] capital equipment. We're not having to [00:44:59] go buy another fire truck because we're [00:45:01] going to be building that uh [00:45:03] stabilization reserve. And guess what? [00:45:05] We're going to be we're going to be in [00:45:07] exceptionally good position into the [00:45:09] future when these other towns are doing [00:45:11] two and a half overrides and they're [00:45:12] cutting staff and they got police that [00:45:13] can only do one shift a day. We're going [00:45:16] to be in great shape because we have [00:45:18] rightsized the business for the revenue [00:45:20] streams that are coming in. And a [00:45:23] business generates revenue and has [00:45:25] expenses and has employees. And that's [00:45:27] what this town is. We generate revenue. [00:45:30] generate revenue through taxation, [00:45:32] through sales tax, through motor [00:45:34] vehicle, through um fees and expenses, [00:45:38] through all the things that we do. We're [00:45:40] a business and we generate revenue and [00:45:43] we we have people to go provide those [00:45:45] services. We have to match the expenses [00:45:48] that we have to the revenue we generate [00:45:50] and that's how you balance the budget. [00:45:52] >> That's not how municipalities work at [00:45:54] all because municipalities go off of [00:45:56] state aid. [00:45:58] What? What state a we getting? [00:45:59] >> It's on here. [00:46:00] >> It's in here. Tell me where it is. [00:46:02] >> Right here. [00:46:04] >> I can tell you all the state we get. [00:46:06] >> I'm I'm interested to see what you get. [00:46:08] >> Where is it? [00:46:08] >> Right here. It's in yellow. [00:46:09] >> Okay. And has it gone down? How much has [00:46:12] it gone down? [00:46:12] >> No, it's gone up. But it's [00:46:16] >> statewide it's gone down and we're not [00:46:18] exempt from what the state is doing. So [00:46:20] that's what I'm telling you. So, so [00:46:22] essentially if you want to go off of the [00:46:24] revenue that the town's bringing in, [00:46:25] then cut the cut the budget by $780,000. [00:46:28] >> Why? [00:46:29] >> Because that's the state aid that we're [00:46:30] getting. [00:46:30] >> Well, we get revenue. [00:46:31] >> So, you want you want to take the [00:46:32] revenue that's not revenue then because [00:46:34] at any point, [00:46:36] >> Mr. Chair, [00:46:36] >> at any point the state can say, "Nope, [00:46:38] we're cutting it." [00:46:39] >> Hold on. So, [00:46:42] let's let's focus on right sizing the [00:46:46] expenses to match the revenue that we [00:46:48] get [00:46:49] >> and then we balance it. [00:46:51] >> Mr. Chair, hold Justin. [00:46:55] >> Um, I don't quite understand what it [00:46:56] means by right sizing the budget because [00:46:59] that also means we are not going to have [00:47:00] anything in free cash to put towards [00:47:02] reserve stabilization to put towards [00:47:04] capital projects because we won't have [00:47:06] any free cash to do it. We'll have a lot [00:47:09] of onetime funds coming in to do it. [00:47:10] >> And then once to your point, then when [00:47:12] those go away, then what? [00:47:13] >> Well, once you rightsize the budget, [00:47:16] then you're not worrying about [00:47:17] >> right sizing the budget would mean [00:47:18] cutting services. So if that's what you [00:47:20] need, [00:47:20] >> I don't think so. [00:47:21] >> It absolutely. We have again I don't I [00:47:23] keep repeating myself. We have one [00:47:24] person department. [00:47:26] >> Bill had point. [00:47:29] >> New point. [00:47:30] >> Well, this is the point. So if we go [00:47:33] along with the finance committee chair [00:47:35] what he's recommending recommending and [00:47:38] we have the 95,000 we we're going to [00:47:40] that's going to allow us probably till [00:47:43] March or April to figure this out and [00:47:46] we'll also figure out how are we going [00:47:48] to get that $100,000 on solar and how is [00:47:51] the gravel at that point and there's [00:47:53] also $50,000 allocated from the state [00:47:56] for and I I don't think it's in here for [00:47:58] the quad we're going to get in the [00:48:01] governor's bond or something. 50,000 [00:48:03] this year or this coming year and 50,000 [00:48:05] the following year until they straighten [00:48:07] out their pilot program. [00:48:09] >> So, and we're not even recognizing that. [00:48:12] But this would allow us but this would [00:48:14] allow us time to make these cuts to go [00:48:17] through the numbers so we don't feel [00:48:18] like we have to make it tonight like [00:48:20] it's do or die tonight. [00:48:22] >> We buy time by doing this. [00:48:24] >> We have I think we have plenty of time [00:48:26] to do it right [00:48:26] >> and it'll it forces us to do the right [00:48:29] thing. [00:48:30] >> Right. [00:48:31] That's [00:48:32] >> to Zach's point, town is different from [00:48:36] a business. Town has to wait. I'm I'm [00:48:40] speaking right now. Okay. [00:48:42] >> Town has to provide certain services. We [00:48:45] cannot say, "Oh, wait a minute. We're [00:48:48] we're not going to provide uh uh fire [00:48:51] protection. Oh, wait a minute. We're [00:48:53] going to cut way back on the police [00:48:54] department." In my mind, we have to [00:48:57] provide those things. business. They can [00:48:59] cut back on their services. [00:49:02] They can close up like uh uh [00:49:04] >> we don't have to debate it. I don't want [00:49:06] to debate it. I I'm I'm not trying not [00:49:08] to debate it. But [00:49:09] >> to that point, we have to keep that in [00:49:12] mind. We're not going to start uh we're [00:49:14] not going to get rid of $95,000 [00:49:17] and then find out we've underallocated [00:49:21] for some of the services and start [00:49:24] cutting them, [00:49:24] >> which we have. Can I add one thing? It's [00:49:28] >> one more new thing. [00:49:29] >> Yes. You can't just cut the bottom line [00:49:31] 95,000 or whatever you're suggesting [00:49:32] because we have it's a line item budget. [00:49:34] It has to total at the bottom. So you [00:49:36] can't just arbitrarily [00:49:38] >> I was going to ask him about this. [00:49:40] >> Yeah. All right. So it's interesting [00:49:41] because [00:49:43] >> to Justine's point, this is this is kind [00:49:45] of um interesting the point you're [00:49:47] trying to make because we have budgeted [00:49:50] line items all along and and she's over [00:49:52] spent a lot of those line items. Okay. [00:49:56] So it doesn't matter what those nine [00:49:57] items are right now. We can pick that 95 [00:49:59] and put it anywhere because we overspend [00:50:03] them anyway or we underspend them. So it [00:50:05] doesn't matter. The end result is what [00:50:07] we need to get to right now. We got to [00:50:09] balance this. But to Justine's point, [00:50:12] how do we manage to take the 95 out of [00:50:14] this without going through line item by [00:50:17] line item? [00:50:17] >> We can find those find I I would like a [00:50:21] list of things that are I I and I have [00:50:23] them, but I I want to know what's [00:50:24] overspent because I I would like to hear [00:50:26] from the town administrators an [00:50:28] explanation of why because I think that [00:50:31] would shed some light on the situation [00:50:33] of why these are overspent. And I [00:50:36] believe that some of them personally are [00:50:38] a failure of the previous budgeting. [00:50:41] Like it for instance, it's been [00:50:43] drastically underbudgeted for years and [00:50:45] we keep overspending and [00:50:47] >> they're dating me because I showed you [00:50:48] the last four years. [00:50:50] >> And if if that's not properly budgeted [00:50:53] and it's it's given to the town and to [00:50:55] the town hall and we have someone coming [00:50:58] in here and saying, "Yep, you budgeted [00:51:00] 38, but we're going to charge you 46." I [00:51:03] don't think that's on her at all. And [00:51:04] I'm not trying to defend her by any [00:51:06] means, but I'm just saying like if [00:51:09] that's the reality of the of the IT [00:51:11] services that we're getting in this [00:51:12] town, I think we need to properly fund [00:51:13] some of this. So I would I I would be [00:51:17] interesting to know what exactly what [00:51:20] what accounts you're talking about and [00:51:22] how we fix them. [00:51:25] >> Again, when we sit and go line by line, [00:51:27] invoice by invoice, we will we'll get [00:51:29] that answer. But I can also tell you if [00:51:31] you ask me it's also legal and I've said [00:51:34] at many meetings you can watch the film [00:51:36] or like I've said you know we're over [00:51:38] we're about to overspend legal we're [00:51:40] this part we're 70% and you were you [00:51:43] were on the board so you know like [00:51:44] >> so we go [00:51:45] >> and some chair if I may [00:51:46] >> hold on let's sometimes when you go over [00:51:50] budget you find the money [00:51:53] >> where's it come from [00:51:55] >> if you're if you're over on legal if [00:51:57] you're over on key. [00:51:59] Where did you get the money from? You [00:52:01] took it out of somewhere. So maybe maybe [00:52:04] Chris's point is correct. You could find [00:52:07] it if you look. [00:52:08] >> All right, back to the original [00:52:11] question. How do you do this on a line [00:52:14] item by line item basis? [00:52:17] Because that's this is the budget that [00:52:19] we're working off of right now. How do [00:52:21] you do that? [00:52:22] >> You can pick any one of those line items [00:52:24] and adjust it down. So, you're down to [00:52:27] $95,000. [00:52:29] >> Now, you had something to say, Bill. [00:52:31] >> Yes. Um, as far as legal, since we're [00:52:34] talking about that, we were town policy [00:52:35] that says this select board is supposed [00:52:37] to vote to engage town council [00:52:40] >> and for from any department head or [00:52:43] anything like that. So, for a cost [00:52:44] savings to this town, [00:52:46] >> yet we do not follow it. [00:52:48] >> We should implement it. [00:52:50] >> You also have you also have a town [00:52:51] administrator's contract that supersedes [00:52:54] that that says that she [00:52:58] Hold on, both of you, please. [00:53:01] >> We're getting off topic. [00:53:02] >> Well, you want to talk about expenses, [00:53:04] sir? I was just bringing it to your [00:53:05] >> Let's just Let's just figure how we're [00:53:06] going to deal with the 95,000 and then [00:53:08] we need to go through the line. [00:53:10] >> It's in in our contract. [00:53:12] >> Jeff, please, please. We're trying to [00:53:15] get the budget done. I think you want [00:53:17] this to happen, right? [00:53:20] >> You guys may as well not have a budget [00:53:21] since you asked me. No. Why would you [00:53:23] even bother if you overspend? Thanks for [00:53:26] asking the question. [00:53:26] >> We don't have time for it. [00:53:27] >> Jeff, it's it I I understand your point. [00:53:30] I get it. It's [00:53:31] >> Yes. Okay, [00:53:33] Mr. Cobra. [00:53:34] >> We can find several line items, adjust [00:53:37] them down. So, we get we come up to [00:53:39] $95,000. It doesn't really matter. [00:53:43] As long as we're not adjusting salaries [00:53:45] and those types of things. And then we [00:53:47] get to the we get to the PL place we [00:53:49] need to be. And then and then once we [00:53:51] get into the fiscal year, then we can [00:53:53] start to really figure out where this is [00:53:55] coming out. [00:53:55] >> Mr. Chair. [00:53:57] >> Yes. [00:53:59] >> Let's do three right now. Yeah. [00:54:01] >> Let's just pick three and let's let's [00:54:03] argue the point and see if it's any [00:54:05] chance that we can do this. [00:54:07] >> Mr. Chair, I can make a couple [00:54:09] recommendations right off the rip if you [00:54:11] want. [00:54:13] >> Go for it. [00:54:14] >> All right. IT services, right? We cut it [00:54:18] to 30. that allows 20K off to the side. [00:54:21] You take the independent audit which is [00:54:24] done in March or April. We can hold [00:54:27] that. Take 26. That's 26,000. We haven't [00:54:31] really affected any services at all. [00:54:33] >> And that's 46,000. That's almost half. [00:54:36] >> Mhm. [00:54:37] >> So, [00:54:38] we'll find the other half. [00:54:41] >> And that's mandatory, especially [00:54:43] >> I know it's mandatory, but it doesn't [00:54:44] happen until March. Listen, take mal [00:54:48] building expense, bring it down to 10 [00:54:49] grand. That's 20 grand right there. You [00:54:50] take [00:54:51] >> You take uh [00:54:52] >> 3,000 for the Harvard fair mun building [00:54:56] repairs, bring it down to $500. Um take [00:55:01] uh [00:55:05] so municipal building repairs, it's at [00:55:07] 5,000. Want to put it to what? [00:55:09] >> $3,500. [00:55:10] >> $500. [00:55:12] what we needed. So, we know that's 4,500 [00:55:15] bucks. [00:55:16] >> Yeah. [00:55:17] >> How are we cutting the IT services when [00:55:19] we got a quote response from three [00:55:23] companies that's above that number? [00:55:26] >> Well, we're supposed to conduct an audit [00:55:28] of the IT services to see what we were [00:55:31] bidding for falls into that. [00:55:34] >> Okay. [00:55:35] >> So, we this board has authorized us to [00:55:38] audit those IT services for 2026. [00:55:43] Take treasures expense down to 5,000 [00:55:45] bucks. [00:55:49] >> So you won't get bills out so you won't [00:55:50] collect revenue. [00:55:52] >> These are just the line items because [00:55:54] they they don't affect salaries. [00:55:55] >> What you're doing is against the law. [00:55:57] Planning planning to overspend. [00:55:59] >> Yeah. We're planning to overspend [00:56:00] budgets. [00:56:03] >> You do it you do it every you do it [00:56:04] every year. [00:56:04] >> I've only been here two years. How can I [00:56:06] do that? [00:56:06] >> You've done it every year that you've [00:56:07] been here. So if it's illegal, then [00:56:09] you're doing illegally. [00:56:11] >> And we've been working to fund the the [00:56:12] these accounts properly. So we're not [00:56:15] doing that. [00:56:15] >> So you're telling me you're illegally [00:56:17] doing something? [00:56:18] >> No, the it's completely illegal for the [00:56:20] select word to do year end transfers at [00:56:22] the last month of the fiscal year. [00:56:23] >> Here we go. [00:56:24] >> So you're going to you're planning to [00:56:26] overspend [00:56:27] >> for the last half of the year. [00:56:28] >> You you you when you did the budget last [00:56:30] year, you plan to overspend all those as [00:56:31] well. [00:56:32] >> I do not plan to you cannot predict [00:56:34] legal. You don't know if you're going to [00:56:35] get sued. You don't know what's going to [00:56:37] come up during the year. [00:56:37] >> Justine, please. [00:56:38] >> No, that's actually that's actually [00:56:40] true. But you're doing a lot. [00:56:45] >> What are we up to, Bill? [00:56:46] >> Um, I haven't been keeping track. So, [00:56:49] unfortunately, I got I got 20 [00:56:51] >> 20 26 that's 46. [00:56:54] Um, and then you had 4500. So, that's [00:56:58] 50,500. [00:56:59] >> I'd love to show D this meeting. I'm I'm [00:57:02] more comfortable taking onetime revenue [00:57:04] and and doing the budget than how you're [00:57:07] doing it because we are 100 this is 100% [00:57:09] against the law [00:57:10] >> 100% and I'm not going to be part of [00:57:12] frankly [00:57:14] you're you're you're I will it's [00:57:16] directly in the deal in the DLF manual. [00:57:19] You you can't do this [00:57:21] >> that we've been doing it every year. [00:57:22] >> No, we haven't. [00:57:23] >> She's been doing it every single year. [00:57:24] >> The the the the accounts that you're [00:57:26] talking about it, right? Legal. What was [00:57:30] the other one? [00:57:32] >> Well, the money was coded wrong. [00:57:36] >> We're talking about the numbers. [00:57:37] >> No, no, spent. [00:57:38] >> No, the over spent over spent. [00:57:40] >> The police one was coded wrong. It's not [00:57:41] really over spent. It was just coded [00:57:43] wrong. [00:57:44] >> So, police I uh that was coded wrong. [00:57:46] So, legal it snow and ice. [00:57:50] I don't I think that might be the big [00:57:51] one big ones. Yeah. [00:57:55] >> And it's about treasure collector [00:57:57] expense. [00:57:57] >> You don't know how much it spend, right? [00:57:59] repairs. [00:58:02] >> Repairs. [00:58:02] >> You can just say, "Sorry, we're not [00:58:04] doing repairs." Right. [00:58:05] >> We'll look for volunteers to make the [00:58:07] repairs. [00:58:08] >> I mean, [00:58:09] >> can't do that either. [00:58:10] >> Well, yeah. Well, you can do a lot of [00:58:11] things, [00:58:12] >> but I mean, if it's been $5,000 every [00:58:14] year. [00:58:15] >> Oh, sorry. [00:58:16] >> Municipal building repairs. I mean, at [00:58:18] least looks like it's been five. I'm not [00:58:20] sure what the actuals are cuz they're [00:58:21] just budget items. [00:58:24] >> It's $4,000. We spent over $4,000 every [00:58:27] year for the last time was budgeted to [00:58:29] 5,000 because [00:58:30] >> I don't know. I just know this year I [00:58:32] can't speak to the other without [00:58:33] checking. [00:58:35] >> But that's a that's a one of those [00:58:37] things where you say if you don't fund [00:58:38] it, we we can't do repairs this year. [00:58:42] >> So when the front door breaks again and [00:58:43] like cuz it's been broken now three [00:58:46] times since I've been here. [00:58:47] >> I'm just saying that's the way when you [00:58:49] cut budgets. You have to live without [00:58:50] something. If someone says I'm I'm [00:58:52] cutting your pay by 30%. Sorry, we're [00:58:55] going to get rid of the cable. We're [00:58:57] going to do this. We're going to buy our [00:58:58] groceries somewhere else. You know, it [00:59:02] it's called living within the budget. I [00:59:04] mean, I don't know [00:59:06] if I don't know how to get there either. [00:59:08] I'm much more naive than all of you guys [00:59:10] about some of this stuff, but if if we [00:59:14] should only spend [00:59:16] 20,000 or 30,000 on it [00:59:20] and but it comes in bidded at 48,000, [00:59:23] maybe we should [00:59:24] We look at what our IT is. I mean, I [00:59:26] don't know what, again, I'm I'm saying [00:59:28] these things and I don't mean to offend [00:59:30] anybody, but if someone told me you [00:59:33] can't spend but $30,000 on your IT [00:59:36] services next year, you bet your ass I'd [00:59:37] go out and figure a way to do that. [00:59:40] >> The the problem is is a lot of the IT is [00:59:42] tied up in to the police department. So, [00:59:45] they have [00:59:47] >> they have various uh software they use. [00:59:51] They have encrypted stuff with their [00:59:53] body cameras, their tasers, etc. And [00:59:56] that IT services that covers all of it [00:59:59] on top of the basic stuff that is done [01:00:01] here, [01:00:02] >> the accounting software [01:00:03] >> with the accounting software with the [01:00:05] email with everything else and the [01:00:07] number that came in [01:00:09] with 30 37 $38,000 [01:00:13] that covers all of it. [01:00:14] >> So [01:00:15] >> So why are we 50? Why why are we funding [01:00:18] it to 50 if the big payment 38 [01:00:20] >> because that's not including the [01:00:22] accounting software. That's not [01:00:23] including the [01:00:24] >> I thought you just said that included [01:00:26] all those things. [01:00:27] >> No, the 38 includes like the police and [01:00:29] and everything. And that doesn't include [01:00:32] again like the accounting software, the [01:00:34] postage machine, the copy machines, the [01:00:36] printers. Like [01:00:37] >> maybe we're picking on the wrong thing, [01:00:38] but there's got to be something [01:00:41] that says if we don't just that one, we [01:00:43] can't do it, [01:00:45] >> you know? [01:00:47] I mean, I know if the door breaks, we're [01:00:49] going to fix it. We'll find money to fix [01:00:50] it, which is like every time you we [01:00:52] every time something happens, you find [01:00:54] money. [01:00:55] >> It's because we overfunded something [01:00:56] else, [01:00:58] >> right? [01:00:58] >> Or it's properly funded, so we're [01:01:00] spending within our means. [01:01:02] >> Yeah, that's the way I'm seeing it. [01:01:03] >> So, we have this delicate balance [01:01:05] between overfunding and under spending [01:01:07] here and overspending and underfunding [01:01:08] here. And at the end of the year, we [01:01:10] hope it all works out. And while we were [01:01:13] going through the line items, [01:01:15] >> yeah, [01:01:16] >> at one of these meetings, I can't [01:01:17] remember which, we found that there were [01:01:20] some items here [01:01:21] >> that were that were [01:01:24] drastically underfunded, underallocated [01:01:27] because we [01:01:28] >> and we overspent them because of that [01:01:30] because we went down we we took an [01:01:32] optimistic view, oh yeah, we can cut [01:01:34] this, right? [01:01:34] >> When some of the reality is the gas has [01:01:36] gone up and all that other stuff. I [01:01:38] understand that. I I [01:01:42] >> Mr. Chair, [01:01:43] >> I just want to check on something. Uh [01:01:45] the new Brainree Police number, is that [01:01:48] been updated as far as what they [01:01:49] contribute to the town? [01:01:50] >> Oh, yeah. [01:01:51] >> Okay. [01:01:52] >> Y [01:01:52] >> So that's it. It's 249,000. [01:01:55] >> Yeah. [01:02:00] >> Yeah. But that's in and out, [01:02:02] >> right? Right. But I was just making sure [01:02:03] because that would affect it. [01:02:05] >> Yep. That's accurate. [01:02:06] >> Okay. Thank you. [01:02:14] Um, another line item is the townhouse [01:02:17] expense. There's $10,000. [01:02:19] Aren't they getting They're using a [01:02:21] grant of $100,000 for improvements right [01:02:23] now. Who's Pioneer Valley? So, why [01:02:27] couldn't we just take that $10,000? [01:02:31] Um I the townhouse that pays for like [01:02:35] when the elevator breaks when um their [01:02:39] Verizon bill all that stuff comes out of [01:02:42] that any maintenance that they do to the [01:02:44] building. [01:02:47] >> So that's the utilities and [01:02:53] >> well how much is the utilities [01:02:56] >> on an annual basis? I can get you a year [01:02:58] and a date. I don't have it memorized. I [01:03:00] mean, I can actually show you. Let me go [01:03:01] grab your debate. [01:03:37] Mr. Chair, another option you could take [01:03:40] from would be for now, cuz mind you, [01:03:43] we're going to have our answers before [01:03:44] March. [01:03:45] >> Okay? So, we're going to we're looking [01:03:47] for where we can buy time. So, the [01:03:50] police overtime budget is 55,000. We [01:03:52] could easily cut that to 45,000 [01:03:56] and use 10,000 of that to towards the [01:03:58] 95. By the time we resolve all this, [01:04:01] we'll know we can either put it back in, [01:04:04] we have a special meeting and make the [01:04:06] adjustments or do a transfer through the [01:04:08] board. But he is exceptional at [01:04:10] following his budget. [01:04:12] >> I I I actually agree with him on that [01:04:13] one. We do it all the time with with [01:04:16] fire [01:04:18] >> and he will get his money back. So when [01:04:21] he watches this [01:04:22] That that Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's [01:04:25] the about the only thing we get out of [01:04:27] his budget. He is [01:04:28] >> right. He's [01:04:29] >> he is exceptional with his budget. [01:04:30] >> He's sprayed out. [01:04:34] >> And he wouldn't need that towards the [01:04:35] end of the year anyway. Like May, June. [01:04:38] >> Yeah. [01:04:41] >> All right. Cutting 10,000 you said out [01:04:43] of that from where [01:04:45] >> police for now placeholder [01:04:53] 65 6 uh 60,500 [01:04:57] >> All right. Wait a minute. [01:05:00] >> I'm sorry,000 [01:05:03] your account. What number? [01:05:18] What else are you suggesting, Bill? [01:05:20] >> Um, well, I I just looked at that as far [01:05:22] as [01:05:22] >> No, no, beyond that. Where did you get [01:05:25] the 16? [01:05:27] >> Go back to the first page. IT services [01:05:30] for now. We cut it to 30,000. We pick up [01:05:33] 20,000 for now. [01:05:35] um the independent audit which is done [01:05:37] in March. [01:05:39] >> Well, January to March. They started in [01:05:41] January. [01:05:42] >> Well, this year they started in March. [01:05:44] >> No, they didn't. They were here in J [01:05:45] they were here early February. [01:05:46] >> Well, we still have time because the [01:05:48] solar pay rate supposed to be in by [01:05:50] December. So, there's 26,000. [01:05:54] >> I I don't I I don't agree. I don't think [01:05:56] we could do that. I I believe that's [01:05:58] against the law specifically because we [01:06:01] have a quote for IT services for $38,000 [01:06:04] and you're saying we're going to fund it [01:06:05] at $20,000. [01:06:06] >> No, we're going to fund it at $30,000. [01:06:08] >> We're [01:06:09] >> Oh, yeah. You can't do that. That is [01:06:11] against the law. [01:06:11] >> We're still knowingly what we're [01:06:14] knowingly under. [01:06:15] >> Mr. Chair, what did we request for these [01:06:18] IT services if we didn't do an audit and [01:06:20] we don't know what we have and what [01:06:22] we're paying for? What licenses are we [01:06:24] paying for? what whole software packages [01:06:26] are we paying for all these things. [01:06:30] >> Um, [01:06:30] >> and that affects the price of IT [01:06:32] services. And this is why we're going to [01:06:34] do an IT audit. [01:06:35] >> Let Mr. Chair, [01:06:36] >> let the county administrator answer. [01:06:39] >> And another thing, two years ago, you [01:06:41] signed a three-year contract with Vadar, [01:06:42] and that is over 14,000 a year. [01:06:46] Vadar is the accounting software, not [01:06:48] you specifically because you weren't [01:06:49] here with the select, [01:06:51] >> right? That's true. And that's something [01:06:53] we should look into and discuss with [01:06:55] Vadar because Barry got the same package [01:06:58] and they're paying I think 10,000 [01:07:00] and it was brought up in their finance [01:07:02] committee earlier this year. So, and [01:07:05] they're two and a half times the size of [01:07:06] us. But, so I don't know if it's certain [01:07:08] modules or what. [01:07:09] >> So, it's 38 plus 15. [01:07:12] >> Why don't we So, we can fund it at [01:07:15] $38,000. [01:07:17] >> I I I know cuz the 38 is just for IT [01:07:20] services. So we're looking at 38 + 15 [01:07:22] for the vadar [01:07:24] >> to properly fund it [01:07:26] >> 14 and change. Yeah. [01:07:29] >> So that figure includes the vadar. [01:07:32] >> Yeah. [01:07:33] >> Well, that's why we were I'm sorry, [01:07:34] Warren, I mean that's why we're slowly [01:07:36] gra remember the point was to slowly [01:07:38] gradually get up to what we're actually [01:07:39] spending so we're not overspending every [01:07:40] year. That was that was the point to [01:07:42] slowly bring up it. [01:07:43] >> So 50 doesn't cover what you actually [01:07:45] need even. [01:07:46] >> No, but it's getting closer. [01:07:48] >> 38 or 50. So, is that against the law? [01:07:50] >> Isn't that Yeah, I was going to say [01:07:51] that's against [01:07:52] >> they're making conscious steps to to [01:07:54] make to take corrective action. No, [01:07:56] >> let let's get away from that stuff. [01:07:58] >> Well, I just want to understand she [01:08:00] likes to throw these things out and but [01:08:02] it's the truth. You can reach out to DS. [01:08:04] They have office hours a couple times a [01:08:06] week and you can ask them that question. [01:08:07] If you're making corrective action in [01:08:09] the they will not they you not get [01:08:10] penalized for it at all. Well, speaking [01:08:12] of GLS, I got an answer from them as far [01:08:14] as these appropriations and then [01:08:17] overspending these line items. We're [01:08:19] supposed to actually do a transfer [01:08:21] before we overspend any of these [01:08:22] appropriations. [01:08:24] That's that's their recommendation. [01:08:27] That's chapter 44 section 33 where you [01:08:31] talk about transfers. The transfer is [01:08:32] supposed to happen before we met. [01:08:35] >> I I I did ask the chief on last [01:08:38] Wednesday and he told me otherwise. He [01:08:40] told me that what we are doing is [01:08:41] appropriate. However, [01:08:43] >> it is not [01:08:44] >> DLS and I got an answer from that. [01:08:46] That's what I'm talking about. I I did I [01:08:48] did DLS ask chief last Wednesday. I [01:08:50] brought up a number of issues. [01:08:51] >> One of them was the year end transfers. [01:08:53] I wanted to confirm for myself what [01:08:56] Justine was saying and what everyone [01:08:58] else was saying and they said that it's [01:09:00] 100% within the realm of municipal [01:09:02] government. You can do that. However, [01:09:04] the best practice moving forward is to [01:09:08] properly fund the accounts that are [01:09:10] being overspent. [01:09:12] >> Well, he gave me a different answer and [01:09:14] said, "You are not allowed to overspend. [01:09:16] It's one thing if you make a $500 [01:09:18] mistake." The second thing he said, and [01:09:21] he said, "You absolutely have to do this [01:09:23] is you need to transfer the money in the [01:09:25] account before you overspend because [01:09:28] otherwise, where does that money come [01:09:30] from?" did and he sent me all the [01:09:32] information. [01:09:34] >> I don't know exactly what question was [01:09:36] asked. I'd like I'd love to see it. [01:09:37] However, this is what they teach us and [01:09:39] >> but unfortunately [01:09:42] blown up. [01:09:43] >> This is not but but this is not helping [01:09:45] us [01:09:47] >> right now [01:09:47] >> come to a conclusion, [01:09:48] >> right? But we're just saying, hey, what [01:09:50] can we do? Cuz part of this issue, Mr. [01:09:53] chair is we could pass any budget, but [01:09:56] if we're not going to follow oversight [01:09:58] and and control spending, we're going to [01:10:01] be in the same boat next year. [01:10:02] >> Yes, exactly. You just brought up [01:10:04] cutting IT services and we [01:10:09] just three quarters of the year [01:10:13] account. [01:10:15] >> Let's it gets us past let's get away [01:10:18] from the IT services then. Well, pick [01:10:21] something else if you have a problem [01:10:22] with it. But it it goes on a monthly [01:10:25] basis. They're going to bill us on a [01:10:27] monthly basis. And our whole thing is is [01:10:29] we should be reviewing this the first [01:10:31] week in January. [01:10:32] >> Did we get our money from the solar in [01:10:35] December? Cuz it's due in December. And [01:10:37] where is the rest of our revenue? Is it [01:10:39] on projection? And every month we should [01:10:42] be keeping track of all these things. [01:10:43] Where are our expenses? So, what all [01:10:45] we're doing is taking 95 95,000 and some [01:10:49] change out of this budget, which is 1.3% [01:10:53] or 1.4% of this overall budget, [01:10:57] which is totally reasonable because [01:10:59] we're not going to spend our whole [01:11:01] budget by December or January. If we do, [01:11:05] we're in really bad shape. [01:11:08] >> Next year. [01:11:10] >> No, I'm just saying. I'm just saying we [01:11:12] got a real problem. [01:11:13] >> Yeah. huge. But this this allows us [01:11:17] time, sir. That's all we're trying to [01:11:18] get. [01:11:19] >> I I think we all got the point. [01:11:21] >> Okay. Thank you. [01:11:27] >> Didn't we vote on the hardwood fair [01:11:29] detail a couple years ago to make [01:11:30] accountable for that? And it's in the [01:11:32] budget this year. I mean, maybe that was [01:11:34] only that year that $3,000. [01:11:37] >> It's not in the annual town meeting [01:11:39] warrant. That is already closed and [01:11:40] posted. [01:11:41] >> But why wasn't it? because that was the [01:11:43] way it's been the last couple of years, [01:11:44] right? It's always been on the warrant. [01:11:46] >> I don't keep asking for another warrant [01:11:49] and they keep taking it off. [01:11:54] >> I thought it was passed [01:11:56] by the people last year. I remember [01:11:58] everybody voting years ago. Two years. [01:12:01] Two years ago. [01:12:02] >> I don't even think I had that two years [01:12:04] ago. It has always been in the budget. [01:12:09] >> All right. Okay. So then 3 years ago we [01:12:11] voted on it at a town meeting. [01:12:14] >> Yeah. [01:12:15] >> It's $3,000. [01:12:17] >> Actually it was the only argument that [01:12:19] the finance committee had with the [01:12:21] select board that year. It was the only [01:12:23] thing we took an exception. [01:12:25] >> It was that one line item. [01:12:27] >> Yeah, it was. [01:12:27] >> Mr. Chair. [01:12:28] >> Yes, sir. [01:12:29] >> Uh another option is uh right now legal. [01:12:33] It's budgeted for 25,000. We could take [01:12:36] 5,000 from that. a budget for 20,000 [01:12:39] right now because we're not going to [01:12:40] spend 20,000 between now and December. [01:12:48] >> I mean, Zach, you're welcome to make [01:12:50] recommendations. [01:12:51] >> I I I don't see how we're cutting [01:12:54] anything. I I really don't. [01:12:56] >> Well, I I don't see I I you're you're [01:12:59] underfunding things that are already [01:13:01] over spent this year. I I don't see how [01:13:05] you can cut it. I I really don't [01:13:08] >> when it comes to when we when is [01:13:10] somebody going to make the hard [01:13:10] decisions. That's the question. We keep [01:13:12] kicking this can and saying, "Well, you [01:13:14] know, next year. Next year, next year [01:13:16] again. [01:13:18] >> That's the way it goes every year." So, [01:13:19] we say it again this year. Well, [01:13:20] everybody got to pass. We float on [01:13:22] through this year and then next year [01:13:24] we're back in the same thing in a bigger [01:13:25] hole. We'll say, "Well, just find some [01:13:27] money somewhere else without taking the [01:13:29] real tough choices." [01:13:29] >> No, cuz then I think we put it in the [01:13:31] voters and then it's it's not us making [01:13:33] the cuts. It's in the voters to say [01:13:36] >> really needs to be a revenue thing is [01:13:37] where are we going to basically the [01:13:38] conversation be where are we generating [01:13:40] revenue where we going to generate [01:13:41] revenue to be able to afford the budget [01:13:43] that we want. [01:13:44] >> If that's why we go for two and a half [01:13:47] and if it fails then it's on the voters. [01:13:50] It's on the voters for what gets cut. [01:13:51] What's happening in Rland? What's [01:13:53] happening in West Brookfield? They they [01:13:55] said we're cutting five firemen. We're [01:13:58] cutting six policemen. You're not going [01:13:59] to have coverage. You're setting us back [01:14:01] 10 years. And the voters said you know [01:14:03] what? Okay. And that's on them. That's [01:14:05] on the boards to to to say it's not the [01:14:09] boards that are cutting. It's the town's [01:14:10] people. [01:14:10] >> Let's just do it this year. Then you go [01:14:12] in with your budget. We'll go with our [01:14:14] budget will be $95,000 less and let the [01:14:16] voters vote on it. [01:14:17] >> Mr. Chair, may I please just [01:14:19] >> Why not do that? That's easy. [01:14:22] >> Trust me. I just want to remind um [01:14:23] everyone so it's the select board's [01:14:25] budget and I did talk to the town clerk [01:14:27] before he left for vacation and the the [01:14:30] format is going to be the select board's [01:14:32] budget and then the next column is going [01:14:34] to be the the finance committee's [01:14:36] recommendation yes no whatever you're [01:14:37] recommending so I would recommend the [01:14:40] select board vote on what they're [01:14:41] comfortable with and the finance [01:14:42] committee h based on whatever the select [01:14:44] word vote have a meeting discuss where [01:14:48] what you're whether you agree or [01:14:49] disagree before town meeting so that way [01:14:51] we can go to town meeting and they'll [01:14:52] have that. They'll have like to his [01:14:54] point they'll have that [01:14:55] >> have a comparison, [01:14:56] >> right? [01:14:58] >> You're okay with that? You okay with [01:15:01] that? [01:15:01] >> Yeah, that's again I'd prefer having [01:15:05] >> finance committee on our side. [01:15:08] >> I don't think they're going to be. [01:15:09] That's [01:15:09] >> Yeah, I'm seeing that now. [01:15:13] And I don't think we're going to be [01:15:14] unanimous either. [01:15:17] >> Right. Well, you're not throwing it on [01:15:19] the voters because we voted for a budget [01:15:21] last year and you over spent it and your [01:15:22] oversight has not been there. So, it's [01:15:25] you guys, not the voters. [01:15:27] >> Please, Jeff, we don't need that [01:15:28] comment. [01:15:34] >> Are you willing to make a motion? [01:15:36] >> I'm going to make a motion to accept [01:15:37] this budget as presented. [01:15:41] >> Okay, I'll second. [01:15:44] Any further discussion? [01:15:47] All those in favor? [01:15:48] >> I [01:15:49] >> No. [01:15:51] >> Okay. [01:15:56] >> Mr. Chair, [01:15:57] >> we respect your decision. [01:15:59] >> I I don't see any other way around. [01:16:01] >> You know, you just have to respect our [01:16:03] >> No, I I understand exactly where you're [01:16:05] coming from. [01:16:07] >> But [01:16:07] >> well, Mr. chair, without proper [01:16:09] oversight by this board, doesn't really [01:16:12] matter what budget we pass cuz if we [01:16:14] continue to spend the way we do, we're [01:16:17] going to have the same problems, but [01:16:18] it's going to be amplified because we're [01:16:20] using onetime revenue of $200,000. We're [01:16:23] going to start negative $200,000 if this [01:16:26] budget gets passed. [01:16:27] >> It's not that's not true. [01:16:28] >> That is Hold on. Hold on. We're not [01:16:31] getting into discussion again, [01:16:33] >> right? Please, [01:16:34] >> it's okay for her to interrupt me, Miss [01:16:37] >> Right. But I can [01:16:38] Don't cut me off. [01:16:39] >> Will they speak, [01:16:41] >> Mr. Chair? [01:16:42] >> Yes. [01:16:43] >> I just want to understand his his point [01:16:47] and hear why she says that's not true [01:16:49] because this is the crux of what this [01:16:52] board is facing is that you've got two [01:16:55] non-reoccurring incidents coming up this [01:16:57] coming year. The 100,000 from Kier Sarge [01:17:01] is going to never show up again for five [01:17:04] years [01:17:05] >> because you're gonna you're it's an [01:17:07] advanced payment. [01:17:08] >> The gravel is not going to show up [01:17:11] again. You sold it, it's gone. [01:17:13] >> So So So we we're facing a a big thing [01:17:17] and what we're saying is take a hundred [01:17:19] of that and we'll figure the other [01:17:21] hundred out. Right. [01:17:24] >> So, I just want to make sure that we all [01:17:26] understand why the I'm taking this this [01:17:30] we haven't we haven't voted as a board, [01:17:32] but why I'm taking this stand. You can't [01:17:34] keep spending your assets [01:17:37] or selling your assets to pay the bills. [01:17:40] You can't. [01:17:44] Even though it's legal, DLS will say [01:17:46] it's legal to do it to use onetime [01:17:49] revenue. They don't recommend it. It's [01:17:50] not best practice. And you will [01:17:52] absolutely start as a negative. Whatever [01:17:54] that number is. Could be $1, could be [01:17:57] $1,000, it could be a million dollars. [01:17:58] What? Whatever it is, you're going to [01:18:00] start negative. [01:18:01] >> We have no good choices. [01:18:04] >> No, we have choices. They're just hard [01:18:06] decisions. [01:18:08] But we do have choices [01:18:10] >> and they should be on the voters, not on [01:18:11] this board. [01:18:12] >> Well, we should we should be explaining [01:18:14] this to the voters of where we should [01:18:17] make these cuts. That's our [01:18:18] responsibility and it's up to the voters [01:18:20] to decide. Do we want 24/7 coverage or [01:18:24] do we not? Do we want this? Do do we [01:18:26] want 10 policemen, 11 policemen, 12 [01:18:29] policemen? How many? I mean, that's that [01:18:31] goes to the voters because every service [01:18:33] costs money. A police force with 12 cost [01:18:36] X. Another police force with 10 cost X. [01:18:40] But it costs either which way it costs. [01:18:43] So, all we're doing is presenting it to [01:18:45] the voters so they can make an educated [01:18:47] vote of what to do. [01:18:49] >> We are going to have services. [01:18:50] >> We're going to have a comparison between [01:18:52] what the finance committee wants and [01:18:55] what we get voted on. [01:18:58] And the town meeting will get to decide [01:19:01] which way they want to go. [01:19:05] Tell you the truth, if you can figure [01:19:07] out your way around this and take out [01:19:09] your $95,000, [01:19:12] it might be a better deal. I But at this [01:19:16] point, I don't think we have a choice [01:19:18] but to go with the budget as we have it [01:19:20] right now. [01:19:22] >> I don't think we [01:19:23] >> Yeah, it makes I understand your [01:19:25] position is 100% understandable. I [01:19:28] >> I don't I don't And to Zach's point, we [01:19:31] should start [01:19:34] right after town meeting start talking [01:19:37] between ourselves about the next fiscal [01:19:40] year and how we're going to do that. [01:19:42] >> That was supposed to happen last year. [01:19:44] >> Well, it didn't. [01:19:45] >> I know. And it won't happen this year. [01:19:47] >> I can tell you something right now. It's [01:19:49] going to happen. [01:19:49] >> It will. [01:19:50] >> I would like to see it. [01:19:51] >> It's going to happen. I'm promising you [01:19:53] it's going to happen because what's [01:19:55] happening, what's been happening is not [01:19:58] going to continue. [01:19:58] >> It's a failure of leadership. You can't [01:20:00] make it on to the town to make the [01:20:02] decision for you. [01:20:06] >> We're going to stabilize the town. [01:20:09] >> Okay, hold on. Remember those words, [01:20:12] >> Bill? [01:20:14] >> I'll make a motion to adjourn if we're [01:20:16] all set. If there's no other questions, [01:20:18] what about when [01:20:19] >> Yeah. When is finance committee going to [01:20:21] meet after Can we Can we stay um open? [01:20:26] >> What do you say? We want might want to [01:20:27] fill [01:20:28] >> you guys meetings and all that. Whatever [01:20:30] meeting minutes approvals and all that. [01:20:32] >> We have some minutes of meetings, but we [01:20:35] do need we ought to talk about this. [01:20:37] >> Yeah, [01:20:38] you don't have a lot of time. So, [01:20:41] >> it's today. That's it. [01:20:44] >> Yeah. [01:20:46] Say we stay open. [01:20:48] >> Okay. [01:20:50] >> Good luck, guys. [01:20:51] >> We'll make a motion to adjourn our [01:20:53] selective meeting. [01:20:54] >> Second. All those in favor? I. [01:20:57] >> All those opposed. [01:21:00] Good luck. [01:21:03] >> Woe to the guy that has to sit at this [01:21:06] table on that side next year. That's all [01:21:08] I can tell you. It's going to be brutal. [01:21:10] >> I have at least one more year. [01:21:12] >> So happy. [01:21:12] >> I am so happy. [01:21:17] >> I have two more years. So they mean [01:21:20] you have another you have you two guys [01:21:22] have another budget [01:21:24] >> it's on the variable [01:21:29] >> I'm going to stick around and hear what [01:21:30] they have to say [01:21:33] first these minutes